I'm frequently asked whether my dogs are from "working lines" or "show lines." The answer differs subject to the point of view of the questioner. I have to establish some commonality of definition before I can begin to answer. Are these pet people who have seen the terms somewhere and been told that "show dogs" are genetically inferior to "working dogs"? Are they folk who have done schutzhund and want a pup to compete for regional or national placements? Have they owned a GSD before, and if so what was its bloodline?
Generally speaking, from the perspective of the competitive schutzhund folks, my dogs are "show dogs." From the perspective of AKC show competitors, my dogs are "working dogs." And from the perspective of the German and international organizations that establish the Standard for the breed, my dogs are from the "High Lines" that epitomize the versatility and functionality of the true German Shepherd Dog. With such disparity, where's the consensus?
I once belonged to a few online communities of GSD folk, and discussions would arise that reminded me of the old Kennel Ration commercials (who out there is old enough to remember the brand, let alone the commercial?). The jingle went like this:
"My dog's better'n your dog. My dog's better'n yours. My dog's better cuz he eats Kennel Ration - my dog's better'n yours." If you substitute "bites harder" or "has way more prey drive" for "eats Kennel Ration" you'd have the gist of the argument. The focus in these exchanges wasn't so much an honest discussion of what constitutes true working character in a dog, it was a building-up-by-putting-down process of comparing single elements of the dogs' vast array of capabilities.
For instance, biting. Now, the word tends to conjure a picture of inappropriate aggression, but in the venue of these discussions it referred to the Schutzhund "grip" or the drive to grip sheep, bad guys, or other "prey" ("grip" being the sanitized equivalent of "bite"). Grip is utilized to stop a sheep from escaping the flock, or just as effectively to stop a thief from escaping arrest. It's a useful and desirable trait that should be inherent in the breed. But if the grip is applied without provocation or is so hair-trigger that the dog is dangerous to the general public, or the dog has so much drive that it is useless for anything other than grip work, or its structure and type are so far off standard that it doesn't have the stamina to trot for hours, is it still a true GSD?
Another single element of judgment often applied by tunnel-vision fanciers: sidegait. The movement of the GSD is crucial from a practical standpoint in that the breed is designed to trot effortlessly for hours on end. The application was originally in huge, fence-less mountain meadows where the dogs would circle the herds of sheep all day, every day, throughout the grazing season. To keep that up, the dogs' conformation needed to allow easy, energy-conserving movement. Dog shows are intended to evaluate that movement. But dog shows don't usually evaluate the "sheep sense" at the same time.
Enter the High Lines. These dogs are evaluated as a package...their tracking ability, response to threat, and reliability in real-life situations are assessed together with a nose-to-tail physical critique that spells out their faults and strengths. Outstanding capabilities in one or a few aspects will not buy admission to the end goal of recommendations for breeding --- each dog must possess the full spectrum of qualities or it is not given the KoerMeister's highest rating.
So, are my dogs "working dogs"? Absolutely. Are they show dogs? Definitely. My working dogs rip into the "bad guy", carry their own backpacks on hiking trips, help locate narcotics and lost persons, and allow me to sleep safe and secure at night. My show dogs bring home trophies, cause people to literally lean out of their cars to gush over their beauty, and can stop your heart with their exquisite form when racing through the pasture. Are these dogs one and the same animals? You betcha!!!
I know that you work hard to ensure your dogs are both, but I find that most of us who aren't in the know about show breeds or breeders have to make some assumptions about lines. I have personal experience that has taught me to be leery of any show dog lineage due to health issues; so I have a preference for working dog lines for that reason. It doesn't mean either dog is inherently better; but the dogs who hunt or herd and are bred for that work instead of for show alone do have fewer health issues.
ReplyDeleteYou know I'd LOVE one of your GSDs if it weren't for extenuating circumstances.
I do not have much to add to the debate about work versus show. But I can attest to the fact that people gush over the beauty of your dogs. We can't go anywhere with our Qitty Dog without someone stopping to talk about her. Some people ask by name - Is that a "Dorton Dog". I can also confirm that she looks exquisite when she is going full throttle after a butterfly in a field. Any job we give her she does with enthusiasm and determination.
ReplyDeleteI think Writtenwyrdd's comments serve to illustrate my initial point pretty well. Labeling "working dog" and "show dog" as if those terms indicate specific bloodlines implies that *everyone* who uses the terms uses them in reference to the same dogs. They aren't. The terms are subjective and dependent upon the experiential background of the user.
ReplyDeleteGSD fanciers who pursue championships in the U.S. usually attend AKC conformation shows and tend to think that *all* dogs with Schutzhund titles or of German bloodlines are "working dogs" (and often additionally label them "aggressive" and/or "ugly"). Those whose interest lies in achieving high scores in schutzhund competitions sneer at "show dogs" and instead favor the old DDR or Czech bloodlines, which derive from border patrol dogs back in the war days and which still retain harder character and sometimes a sharpness (willingness to bite first and ask questions later) that suits them well for competition or police/military work but not necessarily for "civilian life."
The breeders who are guardians of von Stephanitz's original vision for the GSD follow the Verein fur Deutsche Schaeferhund's recommendations which are designed to ensure perpetuation of dogs that are balanced both mentally and physically. The physical aspect is assessed in "shows" whereas the mental/working character is assessed in "trials." To receive breeding recommendations the dogs *must* meet requirements in *both* venues. So, no dog receives breeding approval without having certified hips & elbows, an endurance certification, a character/obedience certification, a working title and a conformation rating.
When a dog steps off the schutzhund field and into a show ring, he's not transformed into a show dog; neither does he become a "working dog" by leaving the show ring for a Search and Rescue job. A dog that meets the breed standard for both mental and physical correctness is simply that, a correct, true representative of the breed. Both a working dog and a show dog, in the true sense of what a "show dog" originally meant.
(Blogger wouldn't let me post the entire comment as one so this is the continuation):
ReplyDeleteThe show ring, theoretically, is a venue for evaluation of conformation and overall quality and breeding worthiness. The dog looks the way it does (meets the standard for the breed) precisely because that body type allows it to herd sheep, bring down bad guys, leap high fences, find lost persons, etc.- i.e. Form Follows Function.
I guess the best analogy I can think of is when the Valedictorian of the class is also the state pole-vaulting champ, or the chess genius is also a fencing master, or a debater is also a kick-ass karate star. The odds of being the best in both a physical and mental venue are slim because to be the best requires a dedication of time and resources that is hard to muster. The talents may be there but in practical reality it's difficult to summon the energy and time.
Just so, many dogs who *could* be high-scoring schutzhund dogs as well as top-ranked conformation competitors never reach their potential because their owners' resources are limited. Those who focus on just one or the other are likely to take their dogs higher (and sacrifice their dogs' potential in the other venue) than those who try to do it all. So, those of us with show/working dogs won't see the glory that those who specialize might attain, but it's not a reflection on the dogs' inherent potential.
Yes, there absolutely are differences in certain lines. If you want a police dog, don't start looking at AKC Champions- look for dogs whose ancestors have proven their courage and intelligence in some measurable way; not that Champions can't be courageous and intelligent, but when your dog is your partner and might literally be called upon to save your life one day, you want a warrior. If you want a dog that's going to rack up conformation ribbons and trophies, don't expect to find it at the pound. If you want a dog that epitomizes the characteristics of a particular breed, look for ancestors that have the certifications, titles, and verifiable records to attest to their capabilities and qualifications.
Obviously this taps a long-held frustration of mine. Fodder for many an additional discussion!
This was a very concrete, informative description for the layman who might often hear "show dog" and "working dog" and think never the twain shall meet. Two vom hohlen Hugel GSD dogs are our family companions. Are they drop dead gorgeous? Absolutely!! We have lost count of the number of times people will stop us to ask where these dogs originate.
ReplyDeleteThey are amazingly intuitive, loving members of our family. While they will never reach their full potential because their owners lack time and skill, they possess loyalty and nobility of character that make each treasured gifts to our family. Perhaps, this makes them the best type of champions of all.
Well said, Englishteacher! If I had a dollar for every time someone has contacted me about a pup and explained their needs with some variation of "we just want a pet with a good temperament, we don't need a show dog, we don't even need papers" I would be a very wealthy person. What people don't quite grasp is that the shows, trials, certifications and other seemingly high-fallutin' mumbo-jumbo is what winnows out the dogs that aren't up to par and should not be in a breeding program. Utilizing the dogs that *do* achieve the requisite titles and certifications helps to ensure that not just the picks of the litter but even the "just a pet" puppies possess the characteristics that attract owners to this breed in the first place. And as you said, whether those pups ever see a show ring or a trial field, or not, does not alter their inherent quality and the attributes that make them beloved family companions and protectors.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking about your dogs at all, Beth. Just speaking in general. I never considered a German shepherd as working or show specifically, seeing as they do both. Likewise if you have border collies or other breeds that tend to do both, I'd be considering the breeder and their dogs, not making the sweeping generalization. And I have to confess that because your dogs come from German lines, that I'd prefer them due to a general bias against the US lines. But I certainly don't think that any particular line of dogs of whatever breed are inherently worse than any other, nor better. The issue is my relative ignorance and sense that show breeds can be ruined by the 'fads' of show breeders. And I think that this is what colors the perception of those who aren't heavily into dogs and their breeding/showing.
ReplyDeleteI was hoping I could count on Writtenwyrdd for a good rousing debate ;-) The problem doesn't lie with you or your knowledge base...it starts with semantics. And semantics boil down to personal definition and individual understanding. And individual understanding is predicated on interpretations of events and perceptions. So what's true for you isn't true for me, and vice-versa. Yet, there does exist some actual Truth. The Such-ness of things. Which is why I think this conversation is so interesting and needs to be expanded.
ReplyDeleteWhen you first replied you stated a conviction that you should steer clear of show lines because of health issues that you had encountered in your previous experience. And that's how biases are formed...most people never look beyond their first-impressions (and I'm not just talking dogs here, but all our life experiences about people, preferences, places, etc.), and go on to formulate a world-view that is skewed by those limited, narrowly based beliefs. Those beliefs get treated like facts, and unless that person has a huge reality-check at some point, they'll continue to base their future choices on their accumulated (misinformed or poorly comprehended) deductions.
Furthermore, it really won't matter what the Truth of a situation or experience really is, because that individual's inner perception and recollection of an actual experience will be filtered through such rigidly-held convictions that the truth be damned! Often the most adamant denials are given in response to being confronted with the Truth...they react belligerently because to accept the truth is to deny the view we've held dear for so long. And that would be unthinkable! So, we alter Reality to fit the paradigm we cling to so desperately.
Oh, and that also applies to the "truth" that working dogs are ugly and vicious, and show dogs are stupid and useless for anything but running in circles in a show ring.
I am a relative newbie when it comes to GSD's. I currently have one that was given to me as a gift when my previous dog passed away. Therefore, I knew nothing at the time or even until recently about the differences between "working line" and "show line" in the German Shepherd world as all my own dogs up until now were mixed breed and the purebred breeds I've been exposed to previously didn't have that split within the breed.
ReplyDeleteI've recently been trolling some of the German Shepherd message boards (hey! It was a place to start!) and researching different breeders online as I may soon be in the market for a new German Shepherd puppy. I've found the ongoing debate (battle? war?) over working vs. show lines, American vs. German to be somewhat confusing as it seems to me that what matters more is the adherence to the breed standard and the quality of the dogs that are being produced. Speaking as someone who has struggled with a dog that has had some rare and expensive medical issues, severe allergies and a skittish and often fearful temperament, health and temperament matter more to me than whether the dog can be labeled working or show. It seems like most breeders that I’ve seen online belong in one camp or the other and posters online are adamant about saying that you should know which “type” of German Shepherd you want before even looking. I don’t necessarily have to have a working or a show line dog. I just want a dog that fits the standard, is healthy, has a stable temperament and has the energy level to participate in the activities that I wish to participate in. Whether that dog is from a working line or from a show line is less important than that the dog come from a responsible breeder who knows what they are doing and is producing quality dogs.
All the debate between the different “types” leaves those of us who are less experienced in the breed unsure of where to even begin to search for the dog that they are looking for. Working line or show line? German lines or American lines? I found Beth’s post about how she views her dogs within that spectrum to be refreshing and informative.
Hey Beth,
ReplyDeleteThis is my first visit to your blog. I came upon it via a link at the PDB Forum (MADHOUSE!) which connected to your Kennel website and followed a link there which landed me here. I just want to compliment you on a well written and thoughtful article pertaining to the various "lines" within the GSD scene. As you have already expressed the entire issue/issues involved with all of this are quite complex.
I have had 4 GSD's over the course of my adult life, the first a Back Yard Bred shy-sharp, fear-aggresive female I got in 1975 named Kelly. Following her I had a Malamute and a Golden Retriever before eventually getting another GSD in 1990 from German lines.
Aja(call name)von Ackerman was GSD number two. I am unsure of his pedigree, as I threw my record of it away sometime early in his life as it had no particular value or significance to me. I never completed his registration as I had no access to any venue in which it would be required and had no intention of ever breeding him. Of course at this point I regret it, having entered into the "information age" and now being able to look into who his predecessors were. He was a black and tan and had a dark mask and mantle and an extended saddle, not typical of showllnes, but of course coloration can't be used to infer his lineage. Temperamentally he was the best dog I've had, although he did have hip trouble which manifested in middle age.
Sarge, number three, did not live up to his name. Of unknown ancestry, I took him on as a "rescue" from a neighbor who was no longer able to keep him. He was about 4 months old when I caved in to repeated rquests that I take him. I was not looking to get "something for nothing", but decided to give the pup a home despite his apparent weak temperament. A difficult character to describe, I loved him very much and shed many a tear in sorrow when I had to have him PTS about a year ago due to advanced lymphatic cancer.
Lukas, GSD number four, is still my faithful companion at seven years of age. He is from German Showlines, his pedigree can be seen here:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/503890.html
The dog pictured is one of his littermates. Lukas, my dog, has an extraorinarily bad topline. Whether standing four square or stacked the rear third of his backbone rises well above his withers in a bony hump that might suggest some latent camel dna in his genome. He has chronic skin problems as well. Still, he has pretty fair temperament, and while he lacks some of the intelligence and sensitivity that characterised Aja, he does posses some of the more appealing features of GSD temperament. He is social but somewhat reserved in his affections although not suspicious or cautious in any way. He has very good nerve strength, not showing fear of any sounds such as fireworks or thunder. While his character has never been truely tested via schutzhund or any other training venue that might best show his "true colors", I find his overall character to be desirable/acceptable, but probably substandard for breedworthiness, and less admirable than what I previously experienced with Aja.
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ReplyDeleteWell, having rambled on with this thumbnail sketch of my personal history with the breed, I suppose I have come to a point where I might actually make a comment pertinent to your original post, don't you think!?
Yes...so at this juncture as I contemplate my next GSD it is very unclear to me where, or in which lines, I might be most likely to find the type of dog that would best suit me. Given my geographic location, rural Oklahoma, and a budget that does not afford travelling across the country on a "treasure hunt", I am not really able to explore the world of the GSD with my own eyes and senses as I would prefer. This then makes me very much more dependent on the internet to gather information than I would prefer. But still, I remember too well the "dark ages" of not so long ago when a person had access to very little information and was much more dependent on "luck" to be their best ally in having a desirable outcome to finding a suitable pup.
An unfortunate truth, I think, is that there has been a weakening or dilution of temperament within the German Showlines. My empirical basis for this is the poor performance, in total, of showline dogs in the performance of the courage test. I have seen this with my own eyes via Youtube videos of American Sieger Show participants. Too many, not pretty, if you know what I mean.
On the other hand, it seems that German working lines or sport lines have probably earned a reputation for producing many dogs who are so hyper-driven that they may be poorly suited for happily living in many homes. The most important one to me, of course, my own.
I know, both of these broad generalizations are going to have many exceptions in the wide world of the GSD. Also I am very aware that these are the condensed versions of what I have been able to gather from the internet and NOT based on my own personal experience. Unfortunately. Unfortunate because if I had sufficient personal experience to make these observations I would surely KNOW much more than I do!
I did notice that one of your currrent or upcoming breedings was between a showline female and a workingline male. Good for you, I say! Perhaps, although I surely don't know, it is through pairings such as this that the elusive "Golden Middle" might be realized.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity and place to write out some of my thoughts. I wish you only sucess in all of your endeavors!
SteveO
Sorry I didn't realize there had been some recent comments on this older post.
ReplyDeleteGSD Mom, I appreciate your perspective and am glad you're interested in becoming more informed about the breed as you consider adding another GSD to your life. I can see how it seemed that I was trying to describe my own dogs within the spectrum of characteristics for the breed; my intent, though, had been to use my dogs to illustrate a larger point - that broad-brush characterizations are misleading at best and destructive to the breed. I'm just as guilty as the next person of commenting about "show versus working" lines as if there were inherent meaning in the terms, so this discussion is as much oriented towards myself as anything...I, too, need to remember not to use terms that enforce concepts of splits or separations within the breed. The conceptualization of differing "types" has resulted in acceptance of particular faults in bloodlines that are perceived as almost a point of pride...in a "working line" dog excessive drive is bragged on; in a "show line" dog, gorgeous sidegait overshadows failings of character; fabulous bitework encourages the owner to ignore faults in dentition, pigment, coat, or structure. These faults are accepted and rationalized because the dog exhibits a surplus of "strengths" in areas held as being of higher value in the eyes of the person doing the evaluation. In fact, ALL breeders should evaluate EACH dog against the standard...which requires balance in ALL areas.
Steve, thanks for sharing your experiences with the dogs you've known and loved. Each dog is a unique individual, and in spite of having owned many dozen dogs over the years, I have found that no two are ever exactly alike and no single dog is ever perfect. All we can do is breed to the standard and evaluate the results as objectively as possible so as to bring each successive generation closer to the golden middle you alluded to. You have obviously done quite a bit of study on the subject and I hope you'll drop in and comment on any other topics that are of interest.
ReplyDelete